435 Hamilton Street  
Allentown, Pa. 18101  
Allentown  
Minutes - Final  
City Council  
Wednesday, June 28, 2023  
6:00 PM  
Council Chambers  
Roll Call  
7 -  
Present:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
Appointment of City Solicitor  
15-6001  
R108  
Appointment of John F. “Jack” Gross as City Solicitor at an annual salary of  
$70,000 effective upon passage of this resolution.  
Attachments: R108 Solicitor Appointment (John F Jack Gross)  
John F. Jack Gross Resume  
Memo from Mayor  
Resolution #30659  
Mayor Matt Tuerk thanked City Council for their flexibility in scheduling this  
meeting. This meeting seems like a long time coming. Not for the  
Solicitor's Appointment, but for a couple other items on the agenda. He is  
grateful for Council for being flexible t get additional items on the agenda.  
He stated that he is pleased and honored to be able to present Jack Gross  
to them as a candidate for Solicitor of the city of Allentown. He spoke of  
the work that Matt Kloiber did first under Mayor O'Connell and was an  
amazing Solicitor. He thanked Mr. Kloiber for his tremendous service and  
wishes him the very best. His thoughts were who could fill this position.  
One of the people that he turned to was someone that he has known for a  
very long time since he started working in Allentown at the Allentown  
Economic Development Corporation as well as the Allentown Commercial  
and Industrial Development Authority which was Jack Gross. He reached  
out to Jack and asked what are his thoughts on what they can do to fill the  
Solicitor position. The residential requirements, coupled with the need for  
professional expertise can make it incredibly challenging in this modern  
era to fill positions that the professional character of our residents changed  
significantly over the years since the time when the ordinances were first  
introduced. He called Jack up and asked for some assistance and thinking  
through where they might find a suitable candidate to serve as City  
Solicitor. He stated honestly it would be a total honor for him to have Jack  
was interested in serving in this position. He said Jack surprised him  
saying that he might be interested in doing that. He jumped all over that  
and sat down and talked through what he is presenting, Jack Gross. He  
mentioned the Solicitor's office team and stated that he has full confidence  
in the office and Jack Gross to lead the office as City Solicitor and  
represent our city in all legal matters. He stated that they are going to  
present an engagement with Mr. Gross. He will be providing an annual bill  
to the city of Allentown for his service. He will serve as a part-time basis.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that he knows all of them. Some better than  
others. He appreciates the opportunity and the mayor's kind words. The  
mayor stated that he would be an honor and pleased that he offered this to  
him. He echoed his comments regarding Matt Kloiber and the current law  
office. He stated that he and Matt had an opportunity to speak about this.  
Certainly, in his experience with the law office t has been very positive. It  
made it all the more interesting proposal knowing that the city has a really  
good law office. It makes the position attractive to him. He stated that he  
is happy to answer questions.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks thanked Attorney Gross for the willingness to serve the  
city of Allentown, providing that he is approved. He asked his colleagues if  
they had any questions or comments.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that one note in his selection was that the first part  
of the administration was being very cautious of the way they would  
proceed in the law office. They checked all the boxes. He stated that  
Attorney Gross' willingness to do creative things and to use data to drive  
the decision making process, but take calculated risks. He asked Council  
to keep that in mind as we go forward.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated that he will do so and he is sure that his  
colleagues will.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked Mayor Tuerk to bring him forward during Budget time  
as a full-time Solicitor. He is curious because he is looking at the letter and  
the salary was $50,000 and then you moved it to $70,000. Is there a  
benefit?  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that the Plan at this point is to present the Budget  
for a retainer at $70,000. He will not be a W2 employee and will not incur  
benefits and Pensions.  
Mr. Michael Hanlon stated that Council made an adjustment and he is a  
little confused now. His understanding is that at first it was at $50,000 as a  
retainer. Council changed it to $70,000 as an annual salary with no  
retainers.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that it may have been miscommunication. The  
intent is for Mr. Gross not to be a W2 employee. They will bill in a way they  
will bill in the past.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked if the city will pay him $70,000 and he is going to bill  
hourly.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated no.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that reason for the change was that the original  
proposal was a $50,000 annual retainer and he will bill at a rate. If the  
billing exceeded $50,000, the city would need to pay the additional.  
Instead, they discussed it and increased it to $70,000. There is a cap for  
the set amount for a calendar year because he will be starting mid year,  
they discussed half of that for the rest of the year. He will take the risk that if  
it is more than that, he will not charge the city.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked about on Page 2 of the letter sent to the Mayor.  
Number one, the city will pay $50,000 retainer to Gross McGinley. He  
stated that he does not know if it is an issue. We are hiring you and not the  
firm.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that is correct. He will be doing this work. No  
one else in his law firm will be doing it. That is his business and where he  
will expect the payment to go.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked if he represents anybody on Council.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that he has done work for Mr. Napoli. He is not  
aware that he representing anyone else.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated that for the record, Mr. Napoli is going to  
announce that. He and Mr. Napoli spoke about that prior to the meeting.  
Ms. Candida Affa stated that when the city had Susan, they addressed this  
before about litigation. We are trying to pursue Nuisance Abatement and  
DCNRs. They talked about Adam being a litigator. Ms. Wild was a  
litigator and did go to court for the city several times on issues. She asked  
if he is available for that.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that it depends on the matter. He does not  
want to necessarily speak on certain matters. He doesn't litigate at this  
point in his career. He does substantial amounts of municipal work for 25  
years. He knows Adam litigate.  
Ms. Candida Affa stated that it is important instead of having outside  
Counsel, we have Counsel and especially one that is a litigator. She stated  
that she understands that Adam is quite competent.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated to Ms. Affa not to take work from Adam. He loves  
litigating.  
Ms. Candida Affa stated that she respects Adam. They work together.  
She stated that it is important to be available to Mr. Hanlon because she  
might have a question that he doesn't understand. Are you going to be  
available?  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that he will be available. His office is two  
blocks away and expect to have an office in the building. The advantage  
that he does not litigate is that he is not in court all day. He is in his office  
all day, every day.  
Ms. Ce Ce Gerlach stated that when she first moved to Allentown his  
family's last name was one of the first ones she heard. She stated that your  
family is very politically involved. She did a quick search of her Act Blue  
and he has not given her any money. She asked if he has given anyone  
else on Council and the administration money for political campaigns.  
Mayor Jack Gross stated that he did not.  
Mr. Santo Napoli stated that he would like to add that he had a  
conversation with Mike Hanlon, Chuck Smith, Council's Solicitor; and Mr.  
Gross. He is disclosing that Mr. Gross has been his attorney for 10 plus  
years. He helps with real estate, sales of businesses and he finds him to  
be very experiences and his integrity is top notch and his character as well.  
He thanked Mayor Tuerk for bringing such an excellent candidate forward.  
He thanked Mr. Gross for his willingness to serve and is excited to get him  
on board.  
Ms. Cynthia Mota stated that Mr. Gross has an impressive resume. She  
likes the fact that he graduated from Allen High School. She asked if he is  
planning to be at the city during Budget Season because the city tends to  
need a Solicitor at that time.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated absolutely.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated that one of the things that Council has done is to  
have their own attorney, Chuck Smith who is extremely competent. Any  
questions directly to Mr. Gross will be directed specifically to the city.  
There will probably be few that Chuck will not have the answer to by virtue  
of the fact that he is not a city employee.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that he appreciates that and knows it is a good  
situation. He knows Mr. Smith well. They have been involved in matters for  
more than 20 years. He feels that Council made a good choice and they  
work well together.  
Attorney Charles Smith echoed Mr. Gross' comments stating that they have  
known each other for several decades and finds that he is a person that  
makes himself available and willing to discuss things in an open way for a  
Resolution.  
Attorney Jack Gross stated that he is a 1990 graduate of Allen High  
School.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated that he graduated from Dieruff High School, but  
did go to Allen and they moved to Seventh Street. He asked if there were  
any other questions from his colleagues or from the public.  
Ms. Phoebe Harris stated that she does know Jack. He worked with the  
School District when they were looking at purchasing a property. He was a  
man of integrity. He told them what they could do and what they could not  
do and how things should be done. She stated that he is not a Yes man.  
He is going to proceed with integrity and honesty.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks asked if there were any other comments.  
7 -  
Yes:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
Enactment No: 30659  
Appointment of HR Director  
15-6000  
R109  
Appointment of Nadeem Eli Shahzad as the Human Resource Director at  
an annual salary of $128,000 effective upon the passage of this resolution.  
Attachments: R109 - HR Director Appointment (Nadeem Eli Shahzad)  
Candidate for Director of Human Resources Statement  
Nadeem Eli Shahzad Resume  
Nadeem Shahzad Memo to Council  
Resolution #30660  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that this is the moment that he is talking about.  
They have conducted an extensive search for a Human Resources  
Director. They received no qualified responses. He asked Council for  
financial support in contracting with a search firm that brought us many  
different candidates. None of whom met his standards or me the  
standards or qualifications that Council demands. As he went through this  
process, he was cognizant of how Council would react. He is thrilled to  
present and thankfully he got an inquiry from Mr. Shahzad. When he got the  
resume, he immediately asked for an interview. Mr. Shahzad reached out  
to the search firm stating that he is really interested in this position. He was  
impressive by his determination. He asked the candidates two questions:  
Why do you want to work for city government? What is your interest in  
working for a city government and what do you love about HR? Mr.  
Shahzad is a stranger to the city of Allentown, but intrigued by what we are  
doing here. He expressed interest in providing support to our employees.  
He said that his interest in HR is in serving people. He asked him to come  
in for an interview and went through his extensive resume. He was really  
impressed and would be an effective leader. The time spent without an HR  
Director has been challenging. It is a lot of work to do. He has to update  
an Employee Handbook and implement policies and procedures for a  
changed workplace. He has to create materials for City Council and work  
to change the culture of the city. His education is impeccable. He will help  
to get to the next level.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he sent out a draft of what he was  
going to say today. Council can take a look at it and question what he was  
going to say to them. He spelled it out. Human Resources is important.  
People are very scarce. He stated that there are 800 plus ambassadors  
out there. He wants to ensure that they are taking advantage of that. They  
are in the community. They are the community. he came up as an  
immigrant and the first place he landed was Philadelphia and attended  
Villanova with fond memories. He has given a lot in life to those less  
fortunate. HR is something that he learned. He worked in healthcare,  
government, Nassau and Delaware Counties. If we are fair and treat them,  
they will be fair. We have to give them the tools. He gives a handbook to a  
Pro Bono Firm to take a look at it to make sure it is legal in every  
represent. Laws change constantly. Health insurance is changing rapidly.  
He has met with the department employees. They are very dedicated, but  
they need help and leadership. He is a professor that teaches as various  
universities. He has two master's degrees, one from Villanova and one  
from Long Island University. He is big into charities with two being in  
Pakistan where he is building schools for kids. He started a charity which  
is a dairy farm to start his school. He does all these things because he  
remembers when he came here with $200. What he is today, is because  
of this country. He has three kids, one daughter is a lawyer, his other  
daughter is an executive and his son is a banker. He stated that he has  
everything. He wants to give.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked how long has he lived in Allentown. What experience in  
municipal government? What was your title?  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he lives in New Jersey. He stated that  
he worked for close to 10 years in Nassau County. He worked with both  
the republicans and democrats. His reference was from there. The last  
position was in Delaware County.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked when Mr. Shahzad was in Nassau County what  
experience did you have as an HR Director. He asked in Delaware County  
what was your job.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that the roles varied in 10 years. He dealt  
with the unions and dealt with all the employees being unionized. They had  
excellent relationships. He dealt with IT infrastructure, on-going litigations.  
HR has everything. There is recruitment, benefits, labor relations and  
employee relations with training and mentorship. He is a proactive person.  
He stated in Delaware County he was outside the prison. The county had  
taken over the prison and had him working with a very dynamic female  
warden. They had to do a change in culture.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked if he had any HR duties there. He asked him about  
FMLA. He asked about his 501C(3) in Pakistan.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated yes, he was the Director of HR. FMLA is  
constantly changing. If you don't watch it, you can be taken to the cleaners.  
If you give the employees carte blanche, they will do it. Yesterday, it was  
another change in the law. If you don't keep up with it, the liabilities are very  
big if you don't do that. He stated no, sir. He has two 501C(3)s here from  
the IRS.  
Mr. Ed Zucal stated that there is one major problem for Council and the  
Mayor, the Charter says you have to live within five miles of the city limit.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated within one year. It is one year to relocate.  
Mr. Ed Zucal asked what are your plans to move within.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he has a beautiful house in South  
Jersey. He does not want to sell it. He will get something here. He will look  
around to see if someone has something to rent.  
Ms. Candida Affa stated that she is impressed with him, his degrees and  
accomplishments. It seems like you wear a lot of hats. These charities you  
have, are they in Pakistan. She asked him if he is an educator. You wear  
a lot of hats. It is time consuming and takes a lot of time and energy. It has  
to be a priority. We need an HR Director that is going to be here, all the  
time and full-time.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated yes, they are in Pakistan. He has board of  
directors there and a president from one of the largest universities is on his  
board. He basically go there every six months or four months for a week or  
so to make sure they are doing fine. It doesn't take a lot of time. It is a  
12-hour difference. He stated that he is an adjunct professor. It gives him  
a lot of joy. His first degree was in education and his PhD is in Psychology.  
he is an educator. He wants to make a change in the lives of kids. Our  
colleges are not what the used to be. The kids need a lot of mentoring.  
The key to the whole thing is that he takes it very seriously. He has eight to  
nine people depending on him, 800 employees and dozens of department  
heads. To him, it is 24/7. He used to go to China in December and May  
and teach over there. He doesn't do that now, because his schedule  
doesn't allow it. he is not here just for the paycheck. He is here because  
he has a mission in his life. That is to make a difference. If he worked in  
the big city with the offers, he had he would not have been able to make  
that difference. Here he can make a difference.  
Ms. Cynthia Mota stated that Mr. Shahzad is passionate and when he talks  
about helping people, he always smiles. She can relate to that. She likes  
the fact that he has a lot of experience and a lot of education. He is an  
educator, plus an immigrant. She can see him being sensible to people's  
need.  
Mr. Santo Napoli echoed that Mr. Shahzad's passion comes through  
clearly. He likes that Mr. Shahzad called the city employees ambassadors.  
Most of the city staff are ambassadors. They are engaging with the public.  
They are the face of the city and we are very fortunate to have such great  
ambassadors. they are the most important asset. When you have  
something so important and valuable, it needs to be taken care of. That's  
why it is such an important position. He does agree with the passion. They  
need to be supportive and feel welcomed. That will be one of your biggest  
tasks. He is looking forward to seeing that happen. As an employer  
himself, it is the most important thing in his company. We need someone  
with your caliber. Your resume, congratulations for building an extensive  
resume over the years.  
Ms. Ce Ce Gerlach stated that she and Ms. Santo a year ago she was able  
to see some of the preliminary results of a Climate Survey that was done.  
There were some challenges. What experience do you have with the DEI,  
racism, the homophobia that may exist in certain institutions?  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he has seen that all of his life. Now, all  
of a sudden it is surfacing. It is nothing new. He has dealt with it. It really  
takes all of us to be out there and to make sure we are dealing with it. That  
we are reaching out to those communities that are underrepresented and  
bring them in and cultivate them. They won't just come here. If we go out  
there, we would know our own people. We don't know the others. It takes a  
long time. He has dealt with it and feel very strongly about it. Give them the  
education and the opportunity. If you educate one person, you make a  
change in the whole family. How you bring them up is that you recognize  
that they are human beings, and they are educated, and they may be  
different in a lot of ways. If you take a look, this country is run by doctors  
and scientists from all over the world. Very few from America because they  
are educated and they came here with respect to them. He wants to reach  
out to areas where there are underrepresented people and go to these  
communities and these ambassadors can welcome them. Just to  
advertise the job is not good enough. He wants to go to the community, go  
to the local colleges that graduate certain people, go to workshops or  
schools that teach these skill sets and bring people from there. It is all in a  
zip code. He wants to go to a zip code that doesn't have it. In the last three  
years, it has been very interesting. When the kids were told, go home and  
study. There were millions of them that could not go home and study  
because they did not have wireless or the computer. We have to do  
something with it. It takes a village to change. This is a good village to  
change.  
Ms. Ce Ce Gerlach stated that she appreciates his comments especially,  
since the city is majority people of color. People from around the world is  
in this city and make up the majority of Allentown. As the city tries to better  
reflect the community there will be clashes with the old school and the new  
school.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that it is culture, but we are all human  
beings. We have to understand the culture. We have to accommodate  
others and be tolerant.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated provided that he is approved this evening.  
What is your timeframe and things work out and you enjoy the job. How  
long do you anticipate you remaining in that position.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he works at the pleasure of the  
director and Council. When he is not useful, he will leave. To him, he  
needs to be useful. He drove an hour and a half to get here. He wants to  
be happy when he comes here. He wants to make sure that he is making a  
change and his staff is happy and the word is that HR is making a  
difference. Once that stops, either he is doing his job or not doing his job.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that one of the things he is asking all of the  
department heads to do with the assistance with Mr. Shahzad is to make  
sure there is a succession plan in place and that they are not the only  
person that create that culture and it leaves with them. He is asking Mr.  
Shahzad to train his replacement. Make sure that the people in the  
department are building their skills. We are invested in their professional  
development so they can find ranks and be the next Director of HR.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks asked Ms. Santos if she had any questions or  
comments she would like to make.  
Ms. Natalie Santos stated that she does not at this time.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks asked if the public had any questions or comments  
they would like to make.  
Ms. Phoebe Harris thanked Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad for coming to  
Allentown. There are 72 countries in Allentown School District and 26  
languages. She thanked him for taking the salary. The fact that you care  
so much and have so much compassion and passion to want to help  
change and do the right thing and be the change for Allentown, she  
applauded him. She asked what has he done in the past to grow students  
to come into this workforce. She talked about starting a program or grow a  
program that city grows their own too to make sure they are offering the job.  
Mr. Nadeem Eli Shahzad stated that he always taught at the college level.  
He honestly feels that if you and remembers during his internship in  
Philadelphia when he was at Villanova for his master's that he did go and  
teach there. What a difference the lunch makes. What a difference the  
meals makes for the students. We saw it 20 to 30 years later when a  
pandemic hit us. When these kids did not get that meal. If you are a hungry  
child, you are not going to study. We need to make sure that our education  
is at a level that most of the other European are. We are not at that level  
yet. We need to make sure that we are putting the resources into educated  
our future generations. Put the money where the kids will benefit and take  
care of the teachers. Make sure they are not paying out of their own salary  
for supplies. Provide them support. It takes a lot of passion. He truly belief  
to graduate them to make a living. Not just a degree.  
Ms. Candida Affa stated that the fact that Mr. Shahzad talks a lot that  
means he is an asset. She stated that shows her that he is a  
communicator. To be a leader and all the directors she feels the same  
way. If they can communicate, they will follow and they will listen.  
Mr. Ed Zucal stated that Mr. Shahzad would need a little extra experience  
and will hopefully get it, but you seem like an incredible human being.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated welcome aboard to the city of Allentown.  
7 -  
Yes:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
Enactment No: 30660  
ORDINANCES FOR INTRODUCTION (To be referred to Committee with public comment  
prior to referral)  
15-6002  
Bill 64  
Amending the 2023 ARPA Fund Budget to provide for a transfer of Two  
Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) to Cortex Residential. These funds will be  
used for an affordable housing project in the Walnut Square Apartments at  
40 South 8th Street.  
Administration  
Sponsors:  
Attachments: Bill 64 Cortex Residential ARPA  
WSA - CED Presenation_v3  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated Ms. Kistler.  
Mr. Michael Hanlon stated that this will be referred to committee. This is for  
discussion for Ms. Mota's CD committee.  
Ms. Vicky Kistler stated that they can do the presentation during the DCED  
meeting.  
Attorney Charles Smith recommended Council to refer to the committee  
and recommend that they take public comments before the referral just to  
comply with the Rules.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks asked if there were any comments.  
Ms. Ce Ce Gerlach asked if they are going to bring back the Resolution to  
allocate funding for affordable housing and for infrastructure.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks stated that they will have a Special meeting on ARPA  
funding on July 19th.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that there is one more item that they asked  
Council to consider on the agenda and Request to Suspend the Rules.  
REFERRED TO COMMUNITY AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT  
COMMITTEE  
7 -  
Yes:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
Request to suspend the rules to introduce and vote on the legislation this evening - given the fact that  
the city already had an account set up with 3rd Street Alliance, this became the easiest path to get  
funds to people displaced by a fire in Easton. This is simply a pass through from the state. This will  
need 6 of 7 votes to pass to eliminate the 14 days between introduction and final passage.  
Mayor Matt Tuerk stated that he will turn it over to Vicky in a second, but  
expressed gratitude to Council for considering the Suspension of the Rules  
to consider this Bill to support the need of our neighbors.  
Ms. Vicky Kistler stated that a devastating fire that she is sure Council all  
seen in the media occurred in Easton and displacing over 45 individuals.  
The state reached out to Allentown as the Fiscal Agent of the RHAB  
funding. The city has an open contract. One of the only open contract in the  
state with the Third Street Alliance. To save the time for the state opening  
a contract, Allentown is simply the pass-through agency of this funding from  
the state directly to Third Street to go to the families.  
Mr. Daryl Hendricks asked if there were any comments from his colleagues  
or the public.  
A motion was made by Ed Zucal, seconded by Cynthia Mota, that Council  
Suspend The Rules Request to introduce and vote on the legislation this evening.  
7 -  
Yes:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
15-6004  
Bill 65  
An Ordinance providing for the expenditure of certain monies received by  
the City of Allentown under Title I of the Housing and Community  
Development Act of 1976, as amended; The Homeless Emergency  
Assistance and Rapid Transition to Housing Act of 2009; and Title II of the  
National Affordable Housing Act of 1990, as amended; for the purpose of  
undertaking programs of housing and community development within the  
city.  
Attachments: Bill 65 - NEW ACCOUNT SETUP  
Ordinance #15912  
Enactment No: 15912  
This will need 6 of 7 votes to pass to eliminate the 14 days between introduction  
and final passage.  
7 -  
Yes:  
Candida Affa, Cynthia Mota, Daryl Hendricks, Ed Zucal, Ce-Ce Gerlach, Natalie  
Santos, and Santo Napoli  
ADJOURNED: 7:04 PM